Gay Asian and Proud
Two issues ago MCV ran a story titled ‘No Rice, No Curry’ by comedian/writer Scott Brennan. The article was about racism on gay male dating sites and it garnered a lot of response. In a follow up to that story, Rachel Cook spoke to three members of Gay Asian Proud about their experiences of racism in the gay community, how it plays out and what they think needs to be done about it.
“People would say I wouldn’t have sex with an Asian, they’re dirty,” Azza says of his time in Sydney’s gay clubs. “I’m going back ten or so years ago, but I’m very aware that it still happens now.”
Azza was born in the Philippines and came to Australia when he was six years old. His family settled in Sydney and he moved to Melbourne four years ago to overcome the negative impact racism in Sydney’s gay club scene had had on him. It was in Melbourne that he joined Gay Asian Proud (GAP), a social group for gay men from Asian backgrounds, their partners and friends.
“I wanted to be part of a group that embraces my cultural identity,” Azza says. “I was quite damaged from the racism I experienced and I’d use reverse racism.”
As part of that “reverse racism” Azza chose not to have sex with white men even if he was attracted to them. He also chose not to have any white, gay male friends. And while he says that has changed for him now, he is still concerned about the exclusionary terms used on gay male dating sites such as “no Asians, no Indians”.
“I understand people have preferences in terms of sexual tastes, however I disagree how people express that. If someone says they prefer Caucasians that’s fine, but if I see ‘no Asians no curry no rice’ it still takes me back. It’s not a devastating experience for me any more, because over my years of journey coming out as an Asian gay man I know that not everyone is racist. But I’d like to see more open discussion about this. I’d like to see a forum and talk about what’s the difference between racism and sexual tastes, and how should we express that.”
Arjun, who is from India and studying in Australia, read Scott Brennan’s story with interest. His response to it was based “on an ethical understanding of what prejudice essentially means”:
“On a public network, such public statements are in fact racist because, like all other racist statements in other walks of life, they generate a sense of negativity about a particular community,” Arjun says.
Arjun's experience of reading the exclusionary prerequisites on dating sites sees him questioning whether he would want to explore the gay male dating scene in Australia.
“There have been various references online to the prevalent use of these prejudicial statements on people's dating profiles, and it does make one apprehensive about the prospect of dating here. It is difficult and demoralising to find yourself confronting, in the process of discovering a new city, a world of assumptions about you that are based entirely on conjecture and generalised ideas that belie your individuality.”
GAP convenor Budi Sudarto says gay Asian men are still dealing with the same issues of alienation and stigmatisation as they were when the group first started in the late 1990s.
“Racism is still a part of it and it is an ongoing issue,” Budi says. “It’s also about self esteem and how to establish themselves as a gay Asian man in Australia, in a white dominated gay culture.”
Like Azza and Arjun, Budi says the effect of seeing stipulations such as “no Asians” on people’s online profiles is demoralising.
“You absolutely feel rejected,” Budi says. “There is no way to escape that feeling. It affirms that we are still not accepted [and] that we are still being excluded based on our race.”
Some of the online comments on Scott Brennan’s story were from people who believe it is not a matter of racism when someone specifies ‘no Asians’, it is simply a matter of preference; however, according to Budi, “just because it’s a preference doesn’t mean that it is not racist”.
“People have difficulties accepting that this is racist because no one likes to be called racist,” he says. “Not many people are able to think analytically about how race influences their preference if their preference has been influenced by racial stereotypes and the creation of gay Asian men as being less masculine, or effeminate, or only wanting one thing from white men and that’s a visa. How much of that has influenced someone’s personal preference?”
While it’s obvious that some gay men feel comfortable expressing their lack of desire for Asian men on online dating sites, when that level of anonymity is removed it is a different story. “I think it is probably different in the clubs, because I imagine someone would find it difficult to say to someone’s face, ‘Sorry, no Asians’,” Budi says. “But online there is a barrier maybe that makes some people feel that they can express that.
“However, a lot of gay Asian men when they are in a club feel that when they like someone, and it doesn’t matter what race that person is, there is a thought of, ‘Is that person going to find me attractive and how much of my race is going to influence that?’. Race is there in the background.”
The influence of these issues on gay Asian men’s self-esteem cannot be ignored and Budi believes the only way to start addressing them is by challenging people’s assumptions and questioning why it is in gay culture that white men are still positioned as the most attractive race.
“We need to start talking about this, and maybe it’s a preference because we don’t see any positive representation of ethnic minorities. We don’t see gay Asian men as being hot or even sexual because all of those things are associated with white men. We need to establish the conversation.”
About the Author
Rachel Cook
Rachel Cook has worked in both the queer and mainstream media for over a decade. She wrote the syndicated column, ‘Who’s Afraid of Cheeky Biscuit’, and has written numerous articles and features for the queer press. She has also written for The Age and the ABC. Before becoming editor of Melbourne Community Voice, she was a producer for ABC radio. Between 2008 and 2012, Rachel was the editor of CHERRIE. In 2010 her book, A History of Queer Australia, was published and is currently in use in high schools across Australia.
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Comments (40)
We all know racism has been exists for centuries. We all know racism still existed. We all know “preferance” just another excuse of racist. We all know the racism is hurting some nation. We also all agreed that the racism is a ignorance reflected. But it seems We forget where the racism come from? Why still existed? More importantly is how to stop it?
" No Asians, no curries" is a racist statement. There's no ifs or buts about it. Online dating sites are public places. Please have the decency and good manners as not to offend other users. State your preferences, emphasize the positives not the negatives. It is acceptable to say you are into Caucasians only but unacceptable to say "No Asians". Furthermore, what is the Asian traits? As the author mentioned, Asia is a large continent comprising of so many different looking people. To say that all Asians look the same is ignorant and racist. We have different eyes, noses, lips, skin colour, hair etc...Just remember racism goes both ways.
I'm a 25 year old gay Asian guy (born and bred Sydneysider) and I've been using these online sites since I was in my teens. I remember one night during my teens 'personally (more like secretly lol) coming out' to myself by logging onto manhunt for the first time while under my blanket in my room in the dark because I just couldn't repress my sexuality any longer and was really excited at the time at finally being able to discover the gay 'community' and what gay life offered and such. That and finally being able to meet/be around people like me and the prospect of potentially meeting someone special.
Long story short, I still remember vividly of being stunned at all the profiles excluding, hating or ridiculing me because of something I have never even had any control over such as my racial background. I remember thinking at the time things like "why" and it's not like I had asked to be born Asian... I just am. And I actually do like it believe it or not. Though in saying that, the tears did come and I remember tears (embarrassingly) running down the sides of my face just from the hurt of it all and closing my laptop up and basically cried myself to sleep that night. It stripped me of almost all the self esteem I had at the time... which wasn't much since I was just coming to terms with being a young gay male and was still 'finding' myself.
There were even times where I avoided (whenever I can) ever going anywhere near the "gay villages" (Darlinghurst, Newtown, Surry Hills, Potts Point, etc.) here in Sydney because just walking and seeing some other gay guys walk down the opposite direction to me made me feel so vulnerable (and almost wince) that I couldn't even look at any of them in the eye and would always look firmly at the ground or elsewhere while I was walking - due to all the years of seeing the "No Asians/Rice/Chinks/etc." - it made me think almost every gay guy would be thinking that or feel disgusted whenever they saw me or guys like me.
Anyways, the good news is today I've grown a lot as a person and these things don't bother me nearly as much anymore. I haven't exactly been able to accept it since I don't think I could ever come to accept such a terrible feeling. I've just merely learnt to live with it.
~
@ Person First, Gay Second. What you've just written should be enough for every gay white man to stop writing NO ASIANS on his profiles, but unfortunately it isn't. They don't seem to be able to connect the homophobia they experience from society and the misery they are inflicting on people such as yourself. They can't see that its the same thing. It's like a crazed christian fundamentalist saying Gays should burn in hell and then following it up with "Sorry, just my preference." Same thing. As a white guy I'm sorry you've had to put up with this crap from your own community, in your own country.
Sorry to hear that. These things have a huge impact on some. I just cannot understand why picking on race is not considered racist by some. It is not horrifically hard to drop No Asians or Curry, it just takes someone to consider others.
Dave, the world's full of discrimination. We're discriminated everyday for simply being a minority, yet that's ok.
Ingredients for depression and suicide.
First, use “No Asians” and “No curry” generously. Then stir with sexuality. Mix online and isolate your brain from your cock using the rapist method. Make sure the person is dead before you call police, and tell them it was all about preference.
An alternative given your preference.
Get a fundamentalist rants, mix them up, and post online. Make sure the person is totally dead before you call the police, and say you are not homophobic, it is about free speech.
Creating an online environment of racism does have an impact. It can be the push of the bridge for some. I find it astonishing that even though some have been made aware of the racism they are giving, they refuse to care about the impact it has on others. That they might not want homophobia, but expect others to cop racism? Next time you are chatting online, remember the message these racist are saying, I do not give a shit about anything but my cock, I will hurt anyone to make my cock happy.
Dave, how about "person wants to meet person". Now there's no discrimination in that!
I guess I’m slightly confused here. We all have preferences to “cull the herd” when searching for mates. Those preferences can include shapes, sizes, colors, religions or enthusiasm for sport. If someone feels strongly enough about a preference to put it in their profile, it’s not something you’re going to change. Isn’t the best strategy to move on as quickly as possible?
It almost seems as if there’s a belief that in the split second a “No Asians guy” reads an Asian guy’s greeting there’s a chance. And there isn’t. Why go through the dance you describe of "Hi," tick-tock, tick tock, "Thanks, but I'm not interested." Tell me upfront and save me the carpel tunnel.
(Side note: I similarly don’t get this need for a response to every entreaty; silence is the answer. When you’re in a shop, and online dating is a shop, do you expect a shirt to talk back when you pick it up?)
Being a white man closing in on 50, is it galling to see my peers chasing after 20-somethings in a useless attempt to regain their youth? Yes. But I’d rather know upfront he’s a chicken hawk than waste my time.
And (dropping a bomb here) sometimes what is believed a skin color issue, isn’t. Personally, I like hairy men, a trait most Asians don’t bring to the gene pool but many Indians do. I’m about texture, not hue.
All profiles do is tell you things it would take several “real” dates to learn. (Too many misspellings they’re an idiot; a blurry pic says Parkinson’s)
Really not good stuff here, I'm sorry. This kind of "reasoning" is very prevalent amongst gay white men. There's no focus on how the negative language affects people of colour at all. It's not about preferences in any sense of the word. It's about how our language in these online forums can create despair and depression in people of colour. It's not about people of colour mourning how hard it is to "find a white guy". They are completely aware that they are not what the majority of gay white men go after. It's important for gay white men everywhere to stop using the "its just a preference, no different than like hairy and smooth" defence, and start becoming decent human beings and realising how difficult they are making it for their non-white gay brothers. It's really that simple, but what is so distressing is how difficult it seems to be to get this message across to such mean-spirited people.
As an older white gay male this all sounds very familiar, if I just change a couple of words : "the effect of seeing stipulations such as “no old men” on people’s online profiles is demoralising. You absolutely feel rejected. There is no way to escape that feeling. It affirms that we are still not accepted [and] that we are still being excluded based on our age.” But that's a whole other conversation no-one is willing to have, and another prejudice people don't consider a prejudice, just a "preference."
@ Doug. I know what you mean. I didn't realise that once I turned 35 I was suddenly too old to be alive. But I gained an amazing new superpower: invisibility.
@stopracism
I have just spent an hour or so trawling through your blog. It has raised a couple of questions for me.
There appear to be a number of articles on your blog directly lifted from other sources without proper or any acknowledgment, including the entire “No Rice, No Curry” and it’s follow up article from this very website. Plagiarism is just as unpleasant as racism.
You use a couple of screen grabs from Grindr. Do you have permission from the dozen or so guys whose faces now appear on your blog?
All articles on the blog are referenced. It's a Tumblr blog, you will see that all articles reproduced from elsewhere contain a link directly to the online source. (Often the title itself is the link). So please don't accuse me of plagiarism.
As for using screenshots taken from my phone or submitted from other people's phones, it would be a good idea for you to have a look at Grindr's privacy policy. This is also discussed on my blog. Once you read the policy you will realise that all information people place on their Grindr profiles is public, and this is something they agree to when they sign up.
@stopracism
I have read Grindr’s privacy policy and it clearly states that we as users, agree to Grindr collecting and storing our personal information and providing that information to the users of the app. It doesn’t say anything about a user’s personal information being allowed to be collected and distributed by another user.
In addition, the terms of service do, in part, specifically say:
5. GUIDELINES; USAGE RULES; PROHIBITED CONDUCT & USES
5.2) You Understand And Hereby Acknowledge And Agree That You Will Comply With The Guidelines And You May Not And Warrant That You Will Not:
1. use the Grindr Services or any location information … or collect, attempt to collect, or store location or personal information about other Users;
4. use the Grindr Services for any commercial or non-private use, it being understood that the Grindr Services are for personal, non-commercial use only;
5. use the Grindr Services for any illegal purpose, … laws governing intellectual property and other proprietary rights, data protection and privacy…
My interpretation of that is that your use of screenshots on your blog from Grindr is in violation of their terms of service.
There are quite a number of “married, bi, not out” guys in my area. They would use the app on the understanding that their profile photo is available publically, but only to other users of Grindr.
Does your quest to stop racism and homophobia on Grindr also include (potentially) the possibility of ruining lives?
@ Brendan, you've neglected to mention the part of the privacy policy where Grindr states that all the profile information submitted by users is PUBLIC. There is no mention of this information being available ONLY to other Grindr Users, as you insinuate. Furthermore, I'm not doing anything in breach of the Terms of Service - I'm not storing or collecting Users private information (I'm using their Public information), I'm not using the Grindr service for commercial or non-private use (my blog is not in fact using the Grindr service), and i'm not breaching anyone's intellectual property or proprietary rights by publishing screenshots taken from MY PHONE of PUBLIC information. So please get back in your box on this issue.
As for your insinuation that I am outing married or bi men and thereby ruining lives, I think you are starting to border on the ridiculous here. Again, the information people choose to put into their profiles is public. That's the first point. Furthermore, bi or married or otherwise closeted men are, in my experience, very careful about showing their faces. I doubt very much that a closeted guy or married man is going to be putting his face all over Grindr if he has any fear of being outed. And lastly, if people are happy to place racist and/or homophobic statements on their profiles, it's a bit rich for them to start crying over spilt milk once their profiles attract the attention of people who dislike their racism and homophobia.
So rather than accuse me of "ruining lives", and rather than misinterpreting Grindr's policies to suit your attacks on my blog, how about you back off and talk about something you have a little more understanding of.
And as one last point, you claim plagiarism (of which I am NOT guilty) is just as bad as racism. Once again you have landed squarely in ridiculous land. When did plagiarism ever lead to the same miserable results as racism? Give everyone here an example of it, rather than just saying such silly things. Show us when plagiarism lead an entire group of people to be oppressed, discriminated against, ridiculed, assaulted, or killed.
You clearly haven't read the above. Yes, the privacy policy says: Profile information is public and other users of the grindr app can see your profile information.
Public to other users of the app. Not to the whole world on the internet.
And taking screenshots and publishing them, is collecting profile information and then storing it elsewhere. I believe. I did not accuse you of ruining lives, only pointed out the potential.
@ Brendan
I just double checked and all the links are working fine, bringing readers directly to the source material. I added and extra line above the text with the author's name to avoid any more confusion for non-Tumblr viewers like yourself. The majority of people who follow the blog see it internally via their "Tumblr dashboard" and this shows the links much more clearly than from outside Tumblr.
I think it's better if people have a preference to express in an online dating site that they express this as a positive rather than a negative way, that is "Like asian men" rather than "no Europeans". I've noticed that some dating websites give options for saying you like men from various parts of the world. I don't like it when I read the direct turning away of people from different races and note it as reflecting on that person badly, showing up their lack of sensitivity, so choose to avoid responding to that person. People are free to express themselves how they want online, but what they choose to say and how they say it is the main way I will suss them out.
I notice too that there are people, both caucasian and asian who express a liking for asian men on these sites and that some people's racism doesn't put off a lot of asian men using them.
We hate the words “Fuck off Gays” , it makes us sick. But some have no problem giving that sickness on dating websites with "No Asians or Curry".
Dave, don't engage with this Stuart guy. Just ignore him. In other threads he's written on, he has a deliberate trolling tactic of trying to de-rail any topic. The subject here is racism, yet all we get from this idiot is "jews marrying jews is racist", "heteros not having sex with gays is homophobic" and now "should anyone be allowed to marry" .NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT OF RACISM. Just ignore him.
I agree with you Dave. There is definitely a double standard. The solution is so simple, yet for a lot of people using these offensive terms, they seem hell-bent on maintaning what they think is their right to use them. The solution is just not to use the terms at all. They are redundant. Since none of us are under any obligation to have sex with anyone we don't like, there just doesn't seem to be a need to write "No Asians" or whatever on a profile. If you're not into Asians. a simple "thanks but no thanks" or the more commonly accepted IGNORE will do.
Dave, I admit it's not very nice. But neither are reform rabbis decreeing queer Jews should only marry other queer Jews. Can you tell me how that is any different?
I believe Stuart this is the "My religion is better then yours" argument. A bit like having to convert to marry a Catholic. It is an attack religious freedom, the right to believe or not blieve in a religion.
What's the solution? If queer Jews should only marry other queer Jews, maybe they should not marry. Which lends the question, should anyone, queer or straight, marry?
Great, thanks moderator.
Now that we are able to have a discussion again, I find a lot of guys who previously used "No Asians" have, after being challenged, resorted to writing "Whites Only / Caucasians Only."
Again, I'm totally fine with personal sexual preference - I don't think everyone should find everyone else attractive - but I still find this "Caucasians Only" thing doesn't sit well with me. I feel it still basically says "If you're not Caucasian, I think you're unattractive" and that, to me, is still reinforcing negative statements about people of colour.
I'm thinking that it's better not to write anything about race at all - that way no one can be offended. And if we know its offending a fellow member of our community, why do we cling so strongly to "our right" to put whatever we want on our profiles? What's the worst thing taht would happen to us if we removed racial references altogether?
Any thoughts?
Thank you for bringing this issue back in the spotlight. It always amazes me when I think how some in the gay community, who are already marginalised by wider society, can dish out the same treatment to others within our own community.
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RAcism and homophobia from both sides
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/alp-seeks-to-stop-immigrants-turning-right-on-arrival-20120725-22qq7.html
Whilst racism and homophobia is a wider issue for our entire society, and whilst this was an Interesting article you linked for us (thank you), its not really the topic of this piece above. Is your point that "some immigrants are racist/homophobic themselves" therefore the racism gays of colour endure at the hands of their white brothers and sisters is justified? Because to me these are very separate discussions. If your argument is that saying "No Asians" on a profile is acceptable because some immigrants are homophobic, then I would say that's a bit rich.
Sanan, heterosexuals are the biggest homophobes of all, by not wanting to have sex with us. I don't know if there's much we can do about that, at least not for now. As for "racism", have you thought about lodging a complaint with the Anti-Discrimination Board?
So does anyone want to discuss the article about racism above?
Stopracism, you say "the kinds of statements I see every single day". Since the article is about "gay male dating sites", am I to assume you're on there all the time?
@ Stuart Baanstra
So I’m assuming that’s the preliminary question you ask before you start a round of slut-shaming and ridicule based on whether a person spends the amount of time you deem acceptable on a dating site.
Let’s just nip that stupidity right in the bud, shall we? A massive, massive amount of gay men all over the world frequent gay dating sites on a very regular basis. That’s why sites like Grindr can boast 4 million users.
So rather than hear your tired old derailing statements that only take away from the issue being discussed here (i.e. racism), let’s just get it out in the open – you want to ridicule me for being on a dating site, and you want to do so in some weird attempt to take this discussion off topic.
Great, now that has been made clear, let’s get back to the issue: disgusting racism from many white gay men directed at gay people of colour.
Now, unless you have anything to add about the topic of racism, maybe you shouldn’t be on this particular thread?
Excuse stopracism? "Slut-shaming and ridicule"? I'm not the one on Grindr 24/7!
"How *dare* you accuse *me* of slut shaming, you SLUT!?"
Congrats! That's the most hilariously self-unaware comment I've seen online this week! :-D
@ Paul - its so great to see statements like yours. I'm also a gay white Australian and the kinds of statements I see every single day made towards Asians and Indians makes me so ashamed of the ignorance and mean-spiritedness of the gay community. So when I see comments like yours I'm reminded there are others out there who can rise above this epidemic. What the people using terms like NO ASIANS NO INDIANS need to do is some research on "white privilege". They all clam they are not racist and they are "only stating a preference". If they understood that such statements are coming from a place of extreme white privilege, they might be able to step into the shoes of a person of colour for a change ad see how harmful these statements are. They might even realise that people understand they have sexual preferences, but the way these preferences are expressed can be very harmful and damaging to the psyche of other people. Hopefully the comments after this article are less ignorant and bigoted as they were after the article two issues ago.
I am ashamed to be a gay man who has read and heard racsim towards gay Asian men and not done anything about it. This article has been an important step in my understanding how racsim can effect someone. Well done and thank you to the men in this story for their honesty.
Awesome article!
It comes down to intepretation then. "Profile information is public AND other users of the grindr app can see your profile information" doesn't exclude people outside of the app at all. What about people who are not users of Grindr but see a profile on someone else's phone, say on a bus or a train? The terms do not specify "public TO OTHER USERS OF THE APP". If this was not the meaning intended, then Grindr has some pretty sloppy lawyers. Until this is changed, the information on profiles is public, in every sense and meaning of the word.
As for publishing profiles online, the words I think is important in the terms is "location OR personal information". Firstly, I'm not disclosing a person's location (I wouldn't know where they are unless they stated so on their profile) and it's not their "personal information" I'm collecting, it's their PUBLIC information. (CAPS used for emphasis, not for SHOUTING...)